Law Offices of Richard A. Brennan - Can you rely on them?

gal,we take the threat of legal action against our board very seriously and the threat of hacking is given even more concern.I don't know who you are,but you words in this post have just earned you a very close scrutiny.

I am not sure where you are coming from but I do know that the things said previous to me are much more serious than what I said. I did not threaten anyone. You said that, not me. I have however read threats in these postings. Where did I mention hacking?
Maybe you should read back a little and then decide who is a threatening party, perhaps the people who are becoming personnaly involved with other peoples everyday activiy so close are the ones needed watched.
You can watch me as closely as you wish. I am an honest person with nothing to be afraid of. You can interpret my postings anyway you please just as long as you do not put words I did not say into yours. Thank You and goodbye. I believe I got my point accross so now I can freely boycot this site. Well done oh faithful bullog. Who says dogs are a man's best friend? I believe dogs are a woman's best friend.

You mentioned the old fashioned way with a intelligent IT person(IE Hacking) You also mentioned getting a subpeona for private information(There is your legal threat). I moderate this board,so when this is seen,it is automatically my job to forward to our site owner.He will address it from now on.Just understand nothing personal,just doing my job. If anyone is feeling threatened or stalked on our board,then let management know and we will kick them out permanently.You can email Mikeatdebtconsolidationcare.com or vikasatdebtconsolidationcare.com.

My intention by the old fashion way was working for it not around it. ( I don't think hacking is old fashion) old fashion is honesty. Hacking means nothing to me, but it must to you. I wouldn't know the first thing about hacking but what I do know is that you can retrieve information thru proper IT procedures. What I said is that a FOIA and SUBPEONAS are used for getting information and can be used on this site or anyplace else. That was informative not threatening. I am glad you are doing your job, back up a few days and do your job with others on this site. I see some true flaws here. Glad I got someones attention. I have never been one to hide behind an e-mail or a blog but after reading postings from knowtherealdick I can see why people do. It is very clear to me that there are a few disgruntled consumers with a cause but some people on this site are just here to aggitate the situations and to accuse. Bones to you bulldog:)

Hi Richard ???????? I mean "gal." According to Wikipedia, defamation is the communication of a statement that makes a false claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may harm the reputation of an individual, business, product, group, government or nation.

Can you go on public record and tell your clients which of my statements are false claims, and therefore defaming? Are you denying your history with AmeriDebt and Credicure? Are you denying you occupied an office at Credicure and communicated with creditors as an agent of Credicure, and not as their legal counsel? Are you denying Credicure intercepted the AmeriDebt payments and did not have the means to disburse them? Are you denying you defended those actions in court? Are you denying Credicure has been repackaged to avoid scrutiny by the government?

I do believe I've hit a nerve. Richard/gal, it's a bit of a stretch to say you are being stalked. Your office location and the model of your car were provided by your clients months ago. The only thing stalking you is your past - it's finally catching up to you.

Richard/gal, rethink what you are doing and help your clients get their money back. You're the one with the most to lose. You at least have a law degree to fall back on, but if you don't get on the right side of this before the walls cave in, you're really going to lose everything. You said you were brought up with good Christian values, so prove it. Help all of these people get their money back.

I you really want me to stop exposing your history Richard/gal, then you should help Marshall, Maine Girl, Ripped off in Virginia, Brenda Williams, Kimberly, dm law and the countless others in this forum get their money back.

To; knowtherealdick,
Please quit ignoring me as a person of my own. I am not Richard Brennan. It appears to me that he hasn't hidden so far. It also appears to me that you are ignoring me, is this some little group that you only allow certain people into that want to complain about what ever credit company they are complaing about. If so let me know and I will go elsewhere with people who have some respect for individuals.

While this is all amusing to read, it is not helping anyone get their money back. One purpose of this board is to allow anyone researching R A Brennan to see if they should do business with him a chance to see what others have experienced. It has been proven that no one should. Another purpose is to help others who have been duped. Suggestions as to what has worked, what hasn't, or ideas as to what may help in the future are all greatly appreciated.

Many people have looked into finding out more information about RAB, and it has been shown that he was involved with CrediCure beyond legal representation as he claims, which is nice to know for anyone who believed what RAB or his staff was saying about no involvement. I think that the discussion has taken a turn away from its purpose, and it would be nice to see it back on track with helpful information posted instead of jabs back and forth to each other.

Well excuse me, it was all fine when everyone was against this Richard person but now it all of a sudden is not, seems to me that all knowtherealdick does is repeat his information and you people think that helps. If he can help so much then why is Richard still in business, of course maybe he isn't. I haven't looked him upon line thru his law firm.

Hello "No Springer Antics." The most important advice to give right now concerns the clients who no longer want their payments withdrawn. Putting a stop payment on the withdrawals will not work. Stop pays expire, and if the amount is changed by even a dollar on RAB's end, the withdrawal will go through. We've even heard cases in this forum that the name of the recipient was changed to bypass the stop pay. The only way to guarantee Richard's law office can no longer withdraw funds is to close the account, and open a new one.

Also helpful is the class-action lawsuit initiated by a couple of the clients from this forum. The suit does in fact exist, and clients can learn more of the details by researching Maryland's court system. If you use Google, type in Maryland Judiciary Case Search. Click continue to agree to the terms and conditions on the main page, and then type Richard's name into the search fields on the next page. The class action lawsuit was filed December of 2006 in Frederick County Circuit Court, and the number of plaintiffs is now at 10. The last time I checked, there were only about 5.

Consumers should also contact their local states attorneys offices. The nature of consumer complaints seems to have escalated now that Credicure is no longer operating as a nonprofit credit counseling program. From what Maine Girl said a few weeks back, Richard's office will be making withdrawals from her account until they have collected enough to settle her debts ???????? in about 5 years. Richard said the Credicure trust accounts were depleted (even though the money should have been sent almost immediately to the consumers' creditors) so a major concern should be the type of assurance consumers like Maine Girl have that the money will still be there in 5 years? I think local states attorneys offices would be very interested to hear how these funds are being held. Especially the state of Illinois if they hear Mr. Brennan's and Mr. Formulak's connection to AmeriDebt. Illinois played a major role in closing down AmeriDebt, where this whole thing got started.

all cases are dropped, check it out. I did and this is what I was told.

Courtsarray, you are mistaken. It's case #10C06003015, and it is still active and open.

I have better news to report however. I exchanged email with Mr. Koch this morning, and he reported that past and present business associates of Mr. Brennan have come forward with helpful information.

Keep the faith everyone. Help is on the way.

I called him too, imagine that, someone else here in the know and he told me exactly the opposite. I must have more of an in than you do. Still active because the dismissal has not been filed with the courts yet.

oh my gosh, I can not even believe knowtherealdick thinks anyone would believe an attorney could tell you such confidential information unless of course knowtherealdick is the client pursueing the case. If not the client then confidential information is escaping, which I doubt any attorney would do. Especially if it is made known to the general public.
courts array, you must have a handle on it also. More people are coming in to view here.

SOunds to me as if knowtherealdick is making it a personal crusade to be a hero here. Why else is he so concerned and don't even try to give me that bull about caring about people you do not know. Not buying that crock, cause it has a crack in it.

I have been watching this very closely and I do believe that knowtherealdick has some of information incorrect. Have you read any of the depositions of the two named men. Brennan & Formulak? If so tell me what you know about them because I believe you will see you are mistaken in who said or did what in that particular event. I do believe the depositions were against, not for as you say.
I am glad you keeping revealing your information and sources because it helps me to check out your stories which are exactly that in most of the postings. I have been silently watchin but now you have hit on a snag with me when you start bringing in the state of Illinois. If they in fact did close AmeriDebt then who do think helped them to do that? DAH

Knowtherealdick,

Your posts fall somewhere between ludacris and outlandish. I am curious as to how you "know" so much. Did you used to work with or for any of the people you talk about? If you know all of this so called "scamming" went on, maybe your just mad because you didn't get in on the action? (if indeed there was action to be getting in on) You seem like someone with an axe to grind. I think the important question here is "what is YOUR relation to Richard A.Brennan and his firm?" If you can't answer that, and be truthful, then you have absolutely no moral platform to stand on. Those who have secrets shun the light of day, and Richard Brennan at least is on here posting under his name and not hiding. Can you, "knowtherealdick" do the same? C'mon! We all want to know the real "knowtherealdick." If your being truthful then you have absolutely nothing to lose, and your accusations will carry more weight. If you can't answer then you'll only lose credibility. So which is it?

Illinoisbystander, I encourage you to contact the attorney handling the case against Mr. Brennan with any additional information you may have. His name is James Koch and his email address is listed at the top of page 31.

I'm sure the clients in this forum will greatly appreciate your efforts in helping them get their money back.

to knowtherealdick, An attorney cannot and will not give out information in a case by e-mail to just anyone, I know that and so do you, so therefore you must be a party to the case. I refuse to share my information that I plan to use for my benefit with someone who will throw it out there for everyone else to see. My case is solely my own and that is how I intend to keep it. If the people on this posting are depending on someone else to take care of them then God Bless them because you are not working in their best interest. Have you read the depositions? If not than I encourage you to do so, it will shed some light on your so called facts.

To "knowtherealdick",

I notice you haven't came clean yet. Your continued ignoring of my points will only further erode your credibility. Surely someone with such altruistic and pure motives as yourself has no reason to fear a request for you to me more forthcoming and less mudslinging. If you really are in a position to "know" all that you claim that you do then tell us your relation to Brennan so that we can believe you and your words can carry more weight. What do the rest of you think? Shouldn't we know more about "knowtherealdick" if he is to be the focal point of the Brennan resistance? I think he owes us honesty, especially since he claims that Brennan is dishonest. He should set the moral example. Come on "knowtherealdick" were waiting!

I agree with sayNOtotherealdick,
Lets bring it all out with no holes barred. I am sure an attorney would love to have all the information from this site with it's source to go along with it. What a field day that would be.
The only names mentioned in this entire posting are the real honest people. Brennan, Formulak, Shaffer, and a consumer or two.

Where are you now toknowtherealdick, quit leading all your people around by the the secret postings and tell them who is really trying to help them. They will be surprised to know your identity and what your beef really is. I was sure surprised when I found out. I could reveal your ID for you if you want, but then again that isn't my duty, is it?

Richard, AKA illinoisbystander, comeonpeople, courstarrary, etc, etc. Please allow me to clear the waters that you are trying to muddy to throw off your clients. There is a long-established pattern of behavior they need to be aware of.

Jeff Formulak, president of Credicure, started in the credit counseling industry at AmeriDebt. This is where you also got your start. Under Mr. Formulak, enrollment efforts were very aggressive, and the number of client complaints grew large enough that regulatory agencies began to take notice. Pressure was mounting for the company to make some changes, but Mr. Formulak was unable to make those changes and was asked to leave.

AmeriDebt was not closed down because of client complaints after Mr. Formulak left the company. In its later years, all counselors were certified as credit counselors, fees were lowered and client complaints were almost nonexistent. AmeriDebt was closed because of the complaints over counseling practices when Mr. Formulak was in charge; some of which you had been hired to address. But you were both gone by that time ???????? you had fled to Credicure.

Credicure held advantages because you could operate outside of the bounds of Maryland, (Maryland's AG was hot on your trail), and because you were small enough to escape scrutiny.

You had a chance to become a reputable company but you turned your back on it. You did not counsel clients, you did not lower your fees (as most states were requiring) and that "first payment" was your only motive for running the business. This is why Credicure lost their nonprofit status.

It is my belief that Credicure has transformed into debt settlement because of all the emphasis placed on credit counseling. You can once again fly under the radar. There is just one problem. You history, and Mr. Formulak's is too long, so the past will eventually catch up with you. I'm hoping the time is finally here. Not because I have a personal axe to grind with you, or Mr. Formulak, but because I want your clients to get the help they need. You mocked me earlier for caring about people I don't even know. Richard life is more rewarding when you find ways to help your neighbors. You would learn that if you just gave your clients their money back now and saved them additional grief.

And to discredit you further, Mr. Koch, the attorney in charge of the class-action suit against you, did not reveal anything that was confidential. He said only that present and former associates had stepped forward to offer help, but he did not reveal any names or information they were providing. I think you're most concerned over the fact that the number of plaintiffs has doubled in the last month.

Quit diverting all of us to Brennan, we are not welcome on this site evidently because you keep blowing us off. The more you talk the less people want to hear, all talk and no action is what you are or you would be at knocking at the right doors to help these peolpe instead of BLAH BLAH BLAH which is what you sound like. knowtherealdick your facts are purley third hand info or they would be better formulated. You do not care about anything except your peronal "out to get someone" I know that now and I am laughing at you as I write this. The only reason you bring up the past time after time is because you do not know what the heck you are talikng about, or what is happening in the present, if you did you would know that Mr. Brennan according to his assistant is out of town on business so I am sure he has not had time as you to respond to this crap.
And by the way an attroney cannot giveout any informaton to a case to any uninvloved party. I know that for a fact.

Can anyone tell me how to get in touch with this Mr. Formulak that notherealdick knows so much about? I want to ask him about these accusations.

knowtherealdick I have done some research myself and have gone to the FTC site and have found a very different story, I believe Debtworks"otherwise known as Ballenger Group, LLC" ( owned by none othe than the A. Pukke) was the co. that controlled not only Ameridebt but other companies as well. I knew that if I gave you enough rope you would hang yourself with defamation. It could be construed that you have misinformed the public and have defamed two gentlemen. (Please do not misinturptret this cajunbulldog) You have to answer the question now of who their accuser really is. Or you can just keep passing along untrue information. You make the choice. If you are a man/woman of morals as you are so inclined for people to belive than I trust you will do the right thing and straighten this all out.

I am betting on the fact that knowtherealdick is trying to start or has already started a debt management firm and is looking for leads from this site. Food for thought.

From what I read, Pukke went down and Brennan and Formulak stood tall. Honest men stay above the law like these two men.

Gentlemen, you don't have a purpose here. The name of this forum is "Law Offices of Richard A. Brennan," and the clients here are complaining about Richard or Credicure. If they are honest men, why are so many of their clients accusing them of stealing their money? Why are 10 clients suing Richard to get their money back?

Why are 1,000 clients suing for lung disease from smoking? Why are 550 suing fast food restaurants? People sue everyday for something. If 10 clients out of 3,000-5,000 or how ever many they have are suing than that is really a drop in the bucket I would say.
And please even though I am not a liberated per say woman, I would appreciate being addressed by my gender. Thank you guest

This man is a thief...I have tried to contact His law office on many occasions only to verify my debt..with no reply.
He responded to my lawyer after pressure was applied, and now the BBB-MD has no record of him...Total Ass.
My next step is P.I. to track him or them down.

HI From Maine Girl,

I think this is my screen name here. Sorry I haven't been reading this much for the past week or two my Cat has been sick. ITS not the food thank god and hes doing ok. Havent done much else but spend time with him and Vets. I can give good advice on that!!

To answer a quote to getting money back. I DO NOT WANT MY MONEY BACK! I am a client of RICHARD BRENNAN'S OFFICE and Have been since Nov. And Rocky Mountain Bank. I want his office to take care of 50,000.00 dollars worth of debt. I make my payments and he deals with them. His Office answers every time I call. I bought a home fax. HP has a good one for about 70.00. No I couldnt afford it but its better than calling his office or looking for a fax machine. When I get a letter that concerns me from one of these credit card people. I fax it to his office and I leave it up to them. The machine gives me the date and time I sent it. Thats my proof then I put it in a file and I never hear from this one again. What he does. I do not know. I just know hes handeling it cause they do not call back. I DO NOT KNOW IF THIS WILL WORK! I hired a lawyer not a CREDIT CARD PAYMENT COMPANY!!!!! Go to CCCS or Money managment for that. I am paying Brennan a lot of Money yes. AND I AM GETTING WHAT I PAY FOR. I dont care what this man drives. I drive a 99 Jeep what does that make me? Besides smart its April and more snow coming in Maine. Talk about mud season.
Maine Girl

I just found this site and read a few postings. I signed up through American Debt Negotiators for Richard A Brennan Law office to be legal representation and manage my credit card debt. They set up an account in Rocky Mountain Bank and automatically withdraw funds from my account monthly.

My concern is I keep getting notices from creditors that they want payment or offer a settlement and nothing gets done from ADN/RA Brennan. My credit score is going down the drain and I've started to make arrangements on my own with some of the creditors.

One account I got subpoenaed to court, faxed it to them, was told someone from their legal department would call me - no one ever did. I got scared and paid the money so it wouldn't go to court.

I don't understand why they don't communicate with you, when they are representing you!?! David Ramsey's Total Money Makeover says you shouldn't ever use these types of services... What is a person to do?
Suggestions?

I have been reading this site for months and decided to take a chance on Richard Brennan. In Feb 06, I signed up with United Christian Financial. Payments for a couple of months were coming out and then suddenly stopped. I finally received a letter from Richard Brennan's office ( the intent of the letter was not very clear) offering a debt settlement program. I chose to not respond to them because I had already signed up with united christian, the letter did not state that credicure had gone out of business. Finally collection calls started again. I finally signed up with Brennan's office for debt settlement. That was August of 2006 and still none of my creditors have been paid a dime. I still receive new collection letters everyday and phone calls. I have spoken with Greg Pierce several times and he is a very nice person who always knows what to say to settle me down. Just recently I have been able to log on to Global Communications and every deposit that I have made has been paid out to Richard A Brennan's office for "retainer fees". No money has been paid to my creditors in months and the balances have went up by $4,000 to $5,000 dollars on some of my accounts. I did call Greg to cancel my relationship with this office and will sign up with another company. I have also moved all of my funds to another account and closed this one and have demanded a full refund. What will happen, I don't know, but what I do know is even though this office has helped a few people with their debt, it has definitely hurt as many or more people with taking their money and not applying as it should have. Please do not come back with any of your snide comments. I did give Brennan the benefit of the doubt and now I am in a bigger mess than when I signed up.

How ironic. We signed up with them in August as well. The only accounts that have been paid are the ones that we have been able to make arrangements with. Did you close your personal bank account or the account through Brennan's? How will you be sure they don't "sneak" out more money? I too cannot afford to lose any more and need to decide how to proceed from here.

Thanks for sharing, now I don't feel so stuck (that I'm the only one).

One more, how do you know a legitimate business to sign up with?

Just an FYI, you probably want to close your bank account and open a new one so that they can no longer withdraw any money. Also, do not hold your breath on your refund. I have been waiting since January 15,2007. I have not recieved it. Also, I have not had any phone calls or email returned in 2 months. I have contacted the better business bureau and reported this. They have had no luck either.

I have opened another account with another bank. I have transferred all of my money out the other account. I have closed it. I am now signing up with another company to get this taken care of.

Instead of complaining on this blog maybe you people should go straight to the source. And don't say no one answers the phone because I know firsthand they do. I have always been able to talk to who I needed to with results. Do the right thing and stand by your choice, push the company to answer instead of badmouthing them here. Did you people read your letter when Credicure did close? All non-profits were
stricken by the new laws which gave the businesses no chance of survival, you are lucky these gentlemen decided to start a new company, what would have happened to all of us if they would have just dropped the ball?

Like I said, I have dealt with this firm for a long time. I chose to comment here to maybe help other people make a different and better choice. I never stated that I could not get thru. But I can tell you that I have never ever made a call to this office and had a person answer. I have always had to leave a message and yes finally after months of attempts to speak with someone I finally did. That is not my complaint. My complaint is how they have conducted business with my account which has been very unprofessional and with no results. Also, I never received a letter from Credicure but from Brennan's office which didn't state any new laws, just him soliciting my account. So therefore I feel that the ball was dropped whether it be united christian and or Mr. Brennan. So understand my comments are from my experience when dealing with this firm and I can only ask you, why are you reading this blog? Are you really satisfied?

Question for penmil - how were you able to log on and see the transactions of your accounts? Our debt settlement is through Global Client Services LLC, Rocky Mountain Bank & Trust - which somehow must be a "sister" company to Brennan.

This is new to me - the website that I used to be able to contact Brennan at is now gone! Even when you try to search Richard A. Brennan Law you get nothing - except this site with all of its complaints. What in the world is going on with this business?

to guest: Why I am reading this blog is really none of your concern, but since you ask I will tell you that a friend of mine received incorrect information from this blog and ask me to check it out for her, when I read the postings I was able to direct her to help. She no longer needs to continue to be mislead by knowtherealdick and neither does anyone else. What's wrong? Is no one allowed on here that has had a positive experience. I didn't realize this was a bashing blog. Action speaks louder than typing. Know the right people and you too will get the right results.

Maybe knowtherealdick could help us with an e-mail he seemd to know everything else or could it be that once challenged he dissappeared just like the law suit that was suppose to be active.

Courtsarray, I have not disappeared. The details of the lawsuit are provided below. The case is open and active, therefore you have revealed yourself as either Richard himself, or someone who works for the RAB Law Firm. What other reason would you have for trying to throw clients off track, since all of this information is readily available on the internet?

And to the guest that was admonished earlier by soontobedebtfree, those comments were also posted by Mr. Brennan or someone who works in his office. Take it with a grain of salt.

Details of the class-action lawsuit against Richard are listed below, and can be verified through Google. Type in Marland Judiciary Case Search, and use Richard A Brennan in the search fields.

Court System: Circuit Court for Frederick County ???????? Civil System
Case Number: 10C06003015
Title: Hague, et al vs Brennan
Case Type: Contract
Filing Date 12/12/2006

Attorney for the 10 plaintiffs: James P Koch, Esquire
Address: 1101 St. Paul Street. Suite 404, Baltimore MD 21202

Documents Filed to Date
12/26/2006 Class Action Complaint with Information Report
12/26/2006 Writ of Summons ???????? Civil Issued
3/16/2007 Summons Request to Reisssue
3/16/2007 Motion to Certify Class Action
3/16/2007 Request for Hearing
3/16/2007 Notice of Service of Discovery
3/20/2007 Writ of Summons ???????? Civil Issued
4/10/2007 Notice of Service of Discovery

knowtherealdick,
I am not Richard Brennan and if I am not throwing anyone off. But I must have hit a nerve with you, you have such a personal interest in this that I laugh, we both know court records are open to the public.I say you must be the one who is connected somehow with a definate axe to grind. If you continue to defame me to be THE RICHARD BRENNAN I will take further action. He can stand for this all he wants but I will not. You know the most here, so you think, maybe you worked for him or even more so maybe you are a formal employee. Don't try to mislead people with this index of a case, we both know this will cost people more money than they can afford or will ever recover. If you were looking out for people on this sit than you would be trying to guide them not instigate them. By the way my friend,gal, is her own person too, I noticed you accused her of being him early on.

Global sent me a statement and letter of confirmation. With that information I was able to go to their website and log on.

Hi From Maine Girl,

If you check out Global Client Solutions. The way I understand this site is that its a software program. Any company can buy this and set up a Payment arrangement bussiness. This is only one software program that a company can buy. Its a program not one of Mr. Brennans companys. If you could afford it you could buy the program and use it for your company. Look up Global Client Solutions on the internet. I did when I wanted information.

When ever I have hired a lawyer like in my divorce. I had to have all the money up front. With a debt settlement I expected the same. The only difference is Brennan is letting me make payments to him and he is still representing me. No my creditors are not getting paid. And my credit rating is down but I will get it back up in a few years. It would have gone down anyways. I couldnt afford to keep up with all the payments anyways. I will settle for half the money I owe them. I still get a call now and then.

When you pay a creditor you open your account back up for harrasment. I tell them Im a client of Brennans office. Believe me they know the drill. It took about three months before Brennan got them to stop calling me. Credit card companys have the right to call a borrower. But after a certain amount of time. Power of Attorney letters go out and they have to deal with his office. Not me I have given permission for his office to take care of it. Its very quiet here for now but I am sure these account will be sold to credit collection companys then I will have to let Brennan know their names and address and he can take it from there.

People, go back a few posts, there are many bad comments left about R.A. Brennan. In Aug. of last year, Mr. Brennan did not pay my creditors. When I called to ask why, they said they were having to send all their clients with another company.
To make a long story short, They took out 2 months worth of payments equalling over $1500. I had to close my checking account so that they wouldn't take out any more money. As of April, 2007, I have not heard from them, nor am I able to contact them by phone or email. Do not trust these people. I would contact Consumer credit counseling. They can give you pertinent information over the phone. THere are regulations that they have to go by,and you should not be charged a fee, or have to put $$ down up front.
Good LUck
P.S. Also, go to the BBB of Maryland and check out Mr. Brennan. He no longer has a very good record.

I must be lucky, because this group of "theives" as everyone calls them helped me settle my debt of $25,638 for $14,291. They were a godsend to me. Sorry.

I agree! Brennan's law office is a pack of thieves! They steal from the rich (by the settlements they get from these credit card companies) and give to the poor (in the reduced amount the customer pays). I wish there were more thieves like them in my neighborhood!

Dude, you are a fool and a dumb@$$ to say something like that.